Rachel Maddow’s Monday night MSNBC show brought a rare political moment: a candid, searching conversation with Kamala Harris, her first national interview since the 2024 election and her departure from office.
For nearly an hour, Maddow pressed the former vice president on the themes of her new memoir, 107 Days, which dissects the shortest modern presidential campaign in American history. But one exchange stood out: Maddow confronted Harris about why she did not choose Pete Buttigieg as her running mate in 2024, despite calling him her “first choice.”
Related: Kamala Harris discusses trans athletes & why she wouldn’t ‘turn on transgender people’
Harris’s explanation in the book, that pairing a Black woman married to a Jewish man with a gay man on the ticket was too risky against Donald Trump, has already provoked intense debate inside the Democratic Party. Maddow confronted the issue bluntly. “I’d ask you to just elaborate on that a little bit. It’s hard to hear, with you running as you’re the first woman elected vice president, you’re a Black woman and a South Asian woman elected to that high office, very nearly elected president, to say that he couldn’t be on the ticket effectively because he was gay. It’s hard to hear,” Maddow, who is a lesbian, told the former vice president.
Harris pushed back. “No, no, no — that’s not what I said,” she insisted. “It made me very sad, but I also realized it would be a real risk, no matter how I’ve been an advocate and an ally of the LGBT community my entire life. It wasn’t about any prejudice on my part. … I think Pete is a phenomenal, phenomenal public servant, and I think America is and would be ready for that.”
Related: Pete Buttigieg responds to Kamala Harris not choosing him as her running mate because he’s gay
In the end, Harris chose Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, whose Midwestern background and military service fit the mold of what strategists considered a “safe” running mate. She praised his wife, Gwen, as a hidden asset, calling her “a secret weapon.” But the decision still haunts the campaign that nearly unseated Trump — a race Harris lost by the narrowest margin of the century.
“Maybe I was being too cautious,” Harris told Maddow.
Buttigieg’s rebuttal
Speaking to Politico before Harris’s Maddow interview, the former transportation secretary countered that Americans deserved more credit than Harris gave them.
“My experience in politics has been that the way you earn trust with voters is based mostly on what they think you’re going to do for their lives, not on categories,” Buttigieg said at a ribbon-cutting in Indiana. “Politics is about the results we can get for people and not about these other things.”
He pointed to his reelection as mayor of South Bend after coming out as gay, and former President Barack Obama’s unexpected 2008 victory in Indiana, as evidence that voters can transcend identity-based assumptions. Harris wrote that she and Buttigieg shared a “mutual sadness” about the risks associated with such a ticket. Buttigieg, however, told Politico they never discussed it.
Both Harris and Buttigieg are again considered possible contenders for 2028, and the disagreement highlights a recurring dilemma for Democrats: whether to prioritize electability calculations rooted in America’s prejudices, or to test whether voters are ready for a more comprehensive reflection of the country’s diversity.
A book of reckoning
The exchange with Maddow captured the bluntness that runs throughout 107 Days. Maddow called it “unputdownable,” noting that Harris’s candor sets the book apart from the anodyne memoirs typical of presidential also-rans. Harris includes not just anecdotes but verbatim notes from calls she made when Biden stepped aside — Bill Clinton exclaiming, “I’m so relieved. Send me anywhere,” Jim Clyburn responded immediately, “Let’s go.” California Gov. Gavin Newsom promised to call back but never did.
Harris is unsparing toward Biden’s inner circle, which she describes as reckless in allowing him to delay his withdrawal. She applies the word to herself as well, admitting she feared urging Biden to step down would look self-serving. “The stakes were simply too high,” she writes, for the decision to hinge on one man’s ego.
Maddow pressed her on that, too. Harris admitted, “As much as anything, I’m talking about myself. There was so much at stake, and I thought it would come off as completely self-serving if I suggested it wasn’t a good idea for him to run again.”
Warnings about capitulation
The larger theme of 107 Days is not only Trump’s authoritarianism but the weakness of American institutions in the face of it. Harris accuses billionaires, law firms, universities, and media outlets of “capitulation.” She expected elites to serve as guardrails. Instead, she says, they “groveled.”
“I thought those guardrails would be stronger. I was wrong,” Harris told Maddow. “It’s not like they’re going to lose their yacht or their house in the Hamptons. Democracy sustains capitalism. And right now these titans of industry are not speaking up.”
She cited the controversy over ABC suspending Jimmy Kimmel after Trump’s threats, only to reinstate him following widespread outrage over government censorship. Harris joined the chorus of protests, calling the suspension “an outright abuse of power.” Maddow called it proof of Harris’s campaign slogan: “When we fight, we win.”
Refusing Trump’s bait
Maddow also highlighted Harris’s account of refusing to dignify Trump’s most inflammatory attacks. When Trump questioned her racial identity, advisers urged her to respond with a major speech on race. Harris refused. “Are you f***ing kidding me? … What next? He’ll say I’m not a woman and I need to show my vagina?” she wrote.
On air, Harris explained: “The stakes were too high. You can’t get in the gutter with that guy because that’s how he distracts. He promised to bring down prices, and he lied. I wasn’t about to fall for that bait.”
A careful non-answer
Maddow closed the interview with the inevitable question: Would Harris run again in 2028? Harris demurred. “That’s not my focus right now,” she said, though she is embarking on a 15-city book tour that she describes as an exercise in listening as much as promoting.
When asked whether she would run for governor of California, Harris said no, praising the crowded Democratic field. But she left the larger door open, carefully refusing to rule out another campaign.
This article originally appeared on Advocate: Rachel Maddow confronts Kamala Harris on not picking Pete Buttigieg as her running mate because he’s gay